Don't Get Mad, Get Managed | BTalk Australia

Are we getting more angry? Federal politician Belinda Neal has been told to undergo anger management. Gordon Ramsay’s confrontational style is prime time entertainment for millions. Does this mean it’s appropriate behaviour for the workplace?

Today on BTalk Australia Phil Dobbie talks to corporate psychologist Jasmine Sliger from JSA International Communications about what causes anger and how to manage it.

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Also on this topic, you might want to check out this book review.

• Today’s Transcript:

Dobbie: Good day I’m Phil Dobbie. Do you get angry, I mean really angry? Perhaps you need a bit of anger management.  That’s today’s topic on BTalk Australia.

Scarcely a day’s gone by over recent weeks without hearing about federal politician Belinda Neal and her behaviour at Iguana’s waterfront restaurant in Gosford last month. The Australian Prime Minister has asked her to undergo anger management counselling to which she’s agreed. So what can she expect? Jasmine Sliger is a corporate psychologist with JSA International Communications. Jasmine, first of all, what is it that prompts anger? I would’ve thought it’s a chemical thing.  Some people are more prone to it than others.  Aren’t they?

Sliger: Well, I think maybe the best way to approach it is by looking at what’s the pay-off for anger? What does anger do for us? What benefit is there?  Well, there’s a benefit of power because it makes others do what we want. And it has a lot to do with image. We can show off or look good or look in authority. We can set distance, keep others away by using anger, and also to avoid real feelings by actually implementing emotional control through anger.

Dobbie: Now all of those things you’ve described that makes it sound like you’re getting angry on purpose. But I wouldn’t have thought that’s the case.  Isn’t it something that just hits people a lot of the time?

Sliger: Yeah, well, some people are anger addicts. They really have a desire. They have what, you’re talking about, is the desire/need to get a high from the anger rush or maybe a build up of tolerance or maybe a loss of control. Some people that are anger addicts even miss tag the intensity for intimacy in relationships for anger. Like if I didn’t really love you and I didn’t talk to you like this, you wouldn’t know I loved you.

Dobbie: It’s almost like saying I’m not having any emotion unless it’s an intense emotion.

Sliger: Exactly.

Dobbie: It’s a question of balance.

Sliger: Exactly, it is a question of balance. And I think people are getting a lot more angry now, Phil, than they used to be. It’s simply because of economic circumstances because of, especially the workforce, you know, there are a lot of people that are being made redundant. We’re having to work more hours, do more in our job. So, job satisfaction is not at an all-time high in Australia.

Dobbie: So, is it frustration then that’s leading to anger then?

Sliger: I think it can, yes. But I think that’s just one of a myriad of things. I think our body gives off signals, like it gives us physical signals, a lot of people that we do anger management programs for say “well, physically you know I get tense in my gut and then I start talking loudly and then emotionally I feel churned up.  So we have physical behaviour and emotional signals that our body gives off. And if we’re good at picking up the physical signals, even someone said to me the other day they said, you know, my face feels hard.

Dobbie: Right.

Sliger: And then his shoulders bunch up. And then he starts feel like that the traffic is going against him.

Dobbie: And that’s just before he turns green, rips his trousers, and starts chucking people across the room.

Sliger: Yes.

Dobbie: Belinda Neal is alleged to have come out with that line, you know, that old line, don’t you know who I am. So if she said that, I mean that’s a pretty self-centred attitude. So, are people who are prone to anger also people who have unfeasibly large egos or is it a way of compensating?

Sliger: Well, I think it could be both, you know, I’m not familiar with the Belinda Neal case but so I can’t really speak on it. What I can say is this …

Dobbie: You’d be the only person in New South Wales who isn’t.

Sliger: Yes I know. I purposely stay away from that. But, what I can say is this: is that people in authority sometimes misuse their power. And at an extreme they will say don’t you know who I am if that is what she did say.

Dobbie: Isn’t it good to let go sometimes? You know isn’t it better to be angry than to keep it all in or otherwise hold a grudge.

Sliger: I think there’s an appropriate release for anger because anger is an emotional energy you can reduce anger by releasing energy. So, if you jog or weight train or — punching bag is wonderful I love punching bags — lap swimming, any kind of intense physical exercise like push ups, sit ups, anything like that will really release that energy and then you have more control over yourself. You can get better outcomes from anger. And I think a lot of times we get people to, on a one to five scale, if they’re going past a two they need to actually implement some techniques so that they can actually not go to five because then their anger outcome will not be a positive one.

Dobbie: But isn’t part of the problem actually recognising that it is a problem? I mean I think a lot of angry people might actually say “Hey, you know it’s good that I get angry because at least you know what I’m thinking”.

Sliger: Yeah, and I think they’ll use that as an excuse. But the issue is our anger can lead us into a lot of trouble.

Dobbie: Yeah.

Sliger: With the law, it can prevent us from getting ahead especially in our careers. I know one company that we do some work for who will not promote leaders up the ladder if they are having anger management difficulties. Our anger actually doesn’t get our needs met. It does in the short term if people are afraid of us, but it can really affect people’s view of us. And, it can affect what we want, it can affect how our partners treat us and especially if we’re parents it can really affect our children.

Dobbie: It’s interesting almost everybody I’ve worked with or worked for more importantly has been an angry person. So, you know, to me it looks as though a lot of people that get promoted are quite the opposite. You know, they are angry and it’s because anger is seen as being a driven individual.

Sliger: Well, because you know one of the industries we work in is the entertainment industry. If we’re looking at TV and production and news I think that there is a consistent pattern of challenging behaviour and being disrespectful that people get away with. How many times have I heard somebody who was at their wits end come to me and say “well, the management has said because this person has the talent”, you know, the same as news reader whatever we’re supposed to put up with everything.

Dobbie: I don’t know, are you a fan of Gordon Ramsay? I mean.

Sliger: Oh yes, Gordon. I love to cook.

Dobbie: So how’s he using his anger?

Sliger: I think he’s using his anger, see he I think is a little desensitised. And he’s probably gotten into some very bad habits as a young chef because I’ve worked in kitchens before. And what he’s done is he’s picked up this as a pattern of relating to people.  And some people do not take kindly to this. I know, I’m actually South American and in Spanish if you swear at someone you better run and hope they don’t catch you. In English, however, if you use things like the F word, for some people it’s like, you know, pass the butter. It’s that desensitised. And I think that unfortunately I think that Australian society is getting a little more aggressive than it needs to be.

Dobbie: Taking Gordon Ramsay as an example: is he angry or is he just passionate?

Sliger: I think he’s both. I think he’s passionate and I think what he does is he uses a pattern of disrespectful treatment. A challenging treatment. I think probably his philosophy, I wonder, and this would be a good question to ask him: I wonder if he thinks that if he swears and intimidates people by the swearing that maybe they’ll step up to the plate. Where, in some cases, it actually makes people freeze. And, in most cases we would call that behavioural bullying.

Dobbie: So if you’re confronted with somebody like that in the workplace, maybe your boss is like that, how do you cope with it?  Shouting back, is that a good idea or a bad idea?

Sliger: I think that that’s not a good idea. I do think you have to match the energy. And by that I mean you need to kind of not raise your voice loudly, but you need to raise it to a level where somebody will hear you, where this person will hear you. I do think you should let people know because I do think that it really affects dramatically work moral, job satisfaction, work environment, anything that has to do with increasing the human capital at work I think it can affect.

Dobbie: Now, if you’re aware that you’ve got a problem here and you want to do something about it, I mean it’s a big call isn’t it really, because it’s because you’re getting to the core of your being and starting to question that. How do you make that step and you know and what do you have to do to fix it?

Sliger: OK, I think you have to have a good check in with yourself, a good talk to yourself. And normally I always, if it’s men I always get them to talk to their partners because sometimes their partners know them better than they do. And I get them to really have a good look in and say “what’s the purpose of you using this anger?” You know, in some cases Phil we can actually unpack this behaviour and we can see that, for example, a barrister will say well I screamed at my staff and it was wonderful. They left me alone for the rest of the day. And this person is clearly depressed in this particular case. So, I’m saying that because you need to be really clear what you’re using the anger for. In this case, it’s so people will leave them alone. And people always often think that depression is about crime or being sad, having a low mood. Yes, that’s true. But, also some people that are excessively angry, in other words on a one-to-10 scale it’s a two issue and they come in with an eight anger. It’s way out of proportion.

Dobbie: Yeah, so you need help trying to get that sense of proportion.

Sliger: Absolutely. And if you need a reality check, you know, come to someone like me, there are so many of us corporate psychologists around where you can come and have a reality check and really see, you know, do I have an issue and if I do have an issue, how can I get through it. There are so many anger management courses and books and all kinds of things.

Dobbie: So, is it something that could be introduced into the workplace as well? If we’ve got a CEO over business listening, for example, is it the sort of thing he should be talking to his HR manager about?

Sliger: Oh, absolutely, absolutely.

Dobbie: Let’s calm the anger in this organisation.

Sliger: Yeah, and I do think that HR needs to step up to the plate about some of the anger that occurs at the workplace because some of the anger is way over the top.

Dobbie: Particularly if you’re work in Gordon Ramsay’s kitchen.

Sliger: Yeah.

Dobbie: Thank you very much for your time today Jasmine.

Sliger: You’re very welcome, Phil.

Dobbie: Next time, Voiceover IP and Unified Communications, we talk to Sara Adams from Cisco.

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